Episode 2: Joy

In this episode, we explore the profound concept of joy as part of our series on the fruits of the Spirit. By examining biblical teachings, we differentiate between true joy and temporary happiness. We reflect on how communal joy enhances individual experiences, challenge misconceptions about joy in the Christian context, and share practical strategies for cultivating resilient joy in our lives. 

Transcript

Stephen:
[0:05] C.S. Lewis once said, If you want to get warm, you must stand near the fire. If you want to be wet, you must get into the water. If you want joy, power, peace, eternal life, you must get close to or even into the thing that has them. They are not a sort of prize which God would, if he chose, just hand out to anyone. Well, what if joy isn't about pretending everything's just fine? What if it's what sustains you when everything's not? In this episode, we're talking about a joy that doesn't depend on circumstances, the kind that shows up in prisons, hospital rooms, and seasons of waiting. Joy isn't hype. It's so much more. And it might just be the most misunderstood fruit of the Spirit. Welcome to the Fellowship.

Stephen:
[1:30] Welcome back to the Fellowship Podcast. This season, we're walking through the fruit of the Spirit, and today we talk about joy. Biblical joy is something deeper. It's rooted in the unshakable truth that God is good, even when life isn't. It's the joy that Paul had in prison. It's the joy that David sang about in caves. The joy that Jesus carried to the cross. So what does it mean to have joy when you're tired, overwhelmed, or walking through the valley? Is it possible to grieve and rejoice at the same time? Today we're pressing in, not to fake smiles, but to the deep well of joy that only the Spirit, the Spirit of God, can produce. Let's explore what it means to live from a joy that doesn't make sense. so what are you guys chewing on.

Kat:
[2:31] I, first of all, a joy that doesn't make sense.

Robert:
[2:35] I love that.

Kat:
[2:35] I know, right?

Robert:
[2:36] It's confusing.

Kat:
[2:38] It is.

Robert:
[2:39] Yeah.

Kat:
[2:39] And, you know, in the devotional, you said that joy, our understanding of joy is counterintuitive to what we know and understand. And I'd like to dig into that a little bit more. Why is our concept of joy, we typically think of it as what? Happiness.

Robert:
[2:57] Happiness, right. Right. But I think there needs to be a clarification here in the definition of joy.

Kat:
[3:04] For sure.

Robert:
[3:05] Right. Because I don't think that, like, you just ask any Joe Blow on the street, what is joy? And most people equate that with happiness. Right. Or exuberance.

Kat:
[3:16] Mm-hmm.

Robert:
[3:17] Right. Like, it's not necessarily...

Kat:
[3:18] Contentment.

Robert:
[3:19] Gladness.

Kat:
[3:20] Gladness.

Robert:
[3:21] Right.

Stephen:
[3:21] So, categorically, we typically would put joy as an emotion.

Kat:
[3:27] Yeah.

Robert:
[3:28] And I would argue that it still is. It will. So I think there's a.

Kat:
[3:33] The boxing gloves.

Robert:
[3:34] Get out the box.

Stephen:
[3:35] I'm already looking at Bob like.

Robert:
[3:36] A secular joy. And what we as Christ followers believe is joy. I think that we've appropriated this word. Because joy, happiness and joy existed before this. I was looking this up. The word joy comes from a French word in Middle English from like the 12th century. Right. So if you're looking at the Old Testament and the New Testament, like in the Old Testament, the word that is associated with joy is also associated with happiness, gladness. Whereas in the New Testament, it tends to be just that one word, chara. Right?

Kat:
[4:17] Which I dove into a little bit.

Robert:
[4:19] Okay.

Kat:
[4:20] And chara comes from the Greek word charis, which means grace. interestingly enough it doesn't mean happiness.

Stephen:
[4:29] Well okay so how.

Kat:
[4:32] Are joy and grace connected.

Stephen:
[4:34] I was just going to ask so what what is meant by grace i.

Kat:
[4:38] Don't know how why.

Stephen:
[4:40] Back to the fellowship we don't know we don't know well.

Robert:
[4:45] Grace is not getting what you deserve.

Stephen:
[4:48] Right no it's getting what we don't deserve. Grace is receiving what we don't receive.

Robert:
[4:56] Receiving what we don't deserve, right.

Stephen:
[4:58] And mercy is not receiving what we do deserve.

Robert:
[5:02] Yes. Yes.

Kat:
[5:04] That's good. Where's the power button? We need the power button quote.

Stephen:
[5:09] So, joy as more than just an emotion. More than just an emotion. We agree that joy can be expressed through our emotions. Right?

Robert:
[5:25] Yes. Okay. We're tracking.

Stephen:
[5:28] We can express joy through tears.

Robert:
[5:31] Yes.

Kat:
[5:31] Yes.

Stephen:
[5:32] Well, to the outside appearances, tears is closely tied to sorrow. So joy is something more than what we would think based on what we see. It's more than what we see. You can experience joy through tears and you can experience joy through laughter.

Kat:
[5:52] So joy is both an internal state and and i think this is where joy comes in as surface level joy and then internal deep joy and one is an internal state based on circumstances and one is an external state based on circumstances i.

Robert:
[6:12] Wrote those exact words down.

Kat:
[6:14] Did you i.

Robert:
[6:15] Wrote down external versus like, instead of internal, I use the word present, right? So like when I think of happiness, I think it's more of like a present thing, whereas joy is more eternal. And again, we're, we're tying this to our faith.

Kat:
[6:36] Right?

Robert:
[6:36] And I think that, that, that, that needs to be the clarification that when we're talking about joy, we're talking about the Christian joy. We're not talking about just joy in general.

Stephen:
[6:50] So if you're making that distinction, we should ask, I mean, a fair question would be, can we experience the joy that we're talking about?

Robert:
[6:59] The joy of the Lord.

Stephen:
[7:00] The joy of the Lord as a fruit of his spirit. Can just anyone experience that?

Kat:
[7:08] I say yes.

Stephen:
[7:09] I'd say no.

Kat:
[7:11] Okay. Tell me why.

Robert:
[7:12] I was going to say no too, but then I'm thinking about it. Like, didn't the Lord use a donkey to speak to somebody? Like the Lord can use anybody. The Lord can give anybody that joy.

Kat:
[7:26] Yes.

Stephen:
[7:26] Yes, he can, but not all seed lands and produces fruit. Okay. Remember, we talked last episode, we talked about there's different kinds of seed.

Robert:
[7:39] Right.

Stephen:
[7:40] We did look into the seed being his word and the way that the word is received, right?

Robert:
[7:46] Right.

Stephen:
[7:47] If it's received in a heart soil that is full of weeds, full of thorns,

Stephen:
[7:55] or selfish intent and sin, then it will not be received and produced fruit. Tie that to joy. Well, if our heart is full of the things that would choke out a seed from being able to grow and produce fruit, then wouldn't it stand to reason that joy, which is a fruit of his spirit in us, a prerequisite would be that his spirit has to be in us? Otherwise, then each of these fruits of the spirit, I would argue, are things that we can simply go to the gym and work for.

Kat:
[8:32] So, let me ask you this.

Stephen:
[8:34] That anyone can just strive for.

Kat:
[8:36] Are the only people, this is going to be a contentious question.

Stephen:
[8:42] 100%.

Kat:
[8:42] Yes. Are the only people who can experience joy in this world Christians?

Stephen:
[8:47] No.

Kat:
[8:48] Okay, so.

Stephen:
[8:49] But we're not.

Robert:
[8:50] But we're talking about Christian joy.

Stephen:
[8:52] We're talking about joy as evidenced, joy specifically associated with the spirit.

Kat:
[9:00] If we get out of it and calling it Christian joy.

Robert:
[9:03] Yeah, I don't know that I want to use that word.

Kat:
[9:05] I don't want to use that word. Because that's just narrowing it down.

Robert:
[9:09] Right?

Kat:
[9:10] But if we say joy from the spirit, if we call it joy from the spirit of redemption, joy from the spirit of love, Christ's love for us, God's love for us, joy from that spirit.

Stephen:
[9:28] I would still disagree.

Kat:
[9:29] That not everybody can experience it.

Stephen:
[9:33] Right. I still believe.

Kat:
[9:34] That you would have to be in the spirit or what is the requirement?

Stephen:
[9:40] A relationship with him. If we strive for these things, the benefit of the fruit of this tree outside of him, then it's a fabricated fruit.

Robert:
[9:53] Well, the benefit would be that it's lasting, right? The idea would be, and that's where I think I differ. I agree with both sides of this. I think that a non-believer can experience it. but it's not lasting. Like, I got a glimpse. Yeah, but this other stuff's distracting me.

Robert:
[10:13] So like the stuff that you're saying, oh, I fell in the weeds. I fell in like, right? Like it's easier for me to just kind of say, yes, I fell away from that. But I think they can experience it.

Kat:
[10:24] But then it's- I think so too. I think it can be experienced because we can't limit the power of the spirit. We can't limit the power of God to influence others. And we're, we're all in the constant battle, right, of getting to joy, of understanding it, of letting the Spirit completely transform us. That's constant. It's never ending. In fact, Henry Newman said that joy does not simply happen to us. We have to choose joy and keep choosing it every single day. It's a daily discipline to live in joy and to pursue it, to pursue joy through the Spirit, joy through God, and to really lean into our grace. And I think that people find that in different ways. Somebody might be sitting on top of a mountain and feel God's presence and feel the joy of providence or feel the joy of his creation. And the spirit is moving, but they might not recognize that that's what's happening, right? It's just awe or wonderment, but really something is moving and changing inside.

Stephen:
[11:35] So you're going back to joy being a feeling and what you just described was it can be fleeting it can change it can come and go right i.

Kat:
[11:48] Think that our understanding of it right our acceptance of it. I think that, like I said, I think it's a daily, we have to daily awaken ourselves to being receptive to joy. And that's a choice. It's always there. Nothing changes. The mountains are always there. The awe and the wonderment are always there. It's our daily decision to say, this is what matters. This is bringing me, this is the grace of the day that's provided for me. And I'm going to recognize it and i'm going to live in it and that's a decision i'm not saying that the joy changes or it comes and goes and but your decision to recognize it and live in it is that comes and goes so.

Robert:
[12:33] The presence and the manifestation of it are two different things it's it's there am i just manifesting it am i seeing it and experiencing it knowing it to be true in this moment.

Stephen:
[12:46] So you're describing our awareness of it, and then our ability, once aware, to step into it. Correct?

Robert:
[13:00] Well, I mean, what is stepping into joy? I mean, if you have an awareness of it, it's there, and it does what it does. What do you mean by stepping into it?

Stephen:
[13:09] Well, many have an awareness of God and have no intention of stepping into a relationship with him. He's over there. I'm waving my hand. He's over there. I'm here. Or he's up there and I'm here. So for those who may not know joy, except through experiences, well, what causes, what makes this joy different from any joy? I guess that's my question. Because each of the fruits of the Spirit, I mean...

Kat:
[13:54] Okay, go ahead, go ahead, because I think I have an answer to this.

Stephen:
[13:57] My question is stemming from if the fruit of the Spirit are these things, love, joys, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self-control, all those things, is the Spirit the only thing that can cause those fruits in us? In other words Like we were just discussing Can we experience Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness Outside of his spirit, Because that's where it is. I would agree. It is different. But we have to go back to how is life different with and without his spirit? Because Paul is very clear that the fruit of the spirit are these things. The antithesis of the spirit is the fruit of the flesh, which brings forth death. So I go back to my question. If just anybody can experience these things with or without a relationship with God and his spirit, then what good is having his spirit if anybody can experience these things without his spirit?

Robert:
[15:13] Does that not perhaps stand as a witness for an unbeliever? Like that unbeliever gets that experience and says, wow, Father God, thank you for that. So, like, I think that he could use that to bring him glory and you begin to follow him and the fruits begin to manifest itself.

Stephen:
[15:33] But people will point to other things.

Robert:
[15:35] Perhaps.

Stephen:
[15:36] They will say, maybe. The spirit didn't give me the joy. Therefore, I don't need the spirit. God didn't give me joy. So, I don't need God.

Kat:
[15:44] I agree. I think that that is one situation, right? And I, so we have to remind ourselves that the God of the creator of the universe is constantly pursuing us in a ton of different ways, pursuing our hearts, pursuing relationship with us. And that manifests in many different acts or experiences or feelings. and sometimes we can't really delineate say this is how it's going to come you have to accept it to experience joy and then you'll you know proceed with your relationship with God, I think that that's narrowing it and it's wider than that it's.

Robert:
[16:29] Like putting God in a box sure.

Stephen:
[16:33] So, I guess from my perspective, I would say that, I guess what I'm trying to get at is there's a difference between finding joy in things that pass, right, versus finding joy in things that don't. There is the earthly and there's the eternal. we've already kind of dabbled with the idea that you know, people, anybody can experience joy even for a moment sure, but what sustains us in joy in all seasons, that's that eternal joy that I'm trying to I'm trying to like, can anybody experience eternal joy outside of his spirit, can anybody experience unconditional love outside of his spirit can anybody experience or i think.

Robert:
[17:33] There's glimpses i mean otherwise why would people choose to be in a relationship with.

Stephen:
[17:39] Right because they're hungry right and the fruit of being in relationship with him bears the fruit that fills us up so we don't hunger, gives us water so we don't ever thirst. But if we find, if we try to look for the water that will satiate us and the fruit that will satiate us anywhere else outside of him, will we ever be satisfied? Truly satisfied. That's my point.

Robert:
[18:11] Okay. That's different than what you were arguing though earlier. Like the idea You had said that can people experience this outside of, right?

Stephen:
[18:22] Right.

Robert:
[18:22] And you just agreed that yes, you can because it will be what leads you to the Father.

Kat:
[18:30] Mm-hmm.

Robert:
[18:30] Right? Right. When I think of what is sustained, it becomes an awareness. The reality that I'm in a moment right now where I'm experiencing depression and anxiety, and I need to remind myself of God's goodness in that moment.

Kat:
[18:52] Yes.

Robert:
[18:53] Right? And it takes that awareness, right? It's there.

Kat:
[18:57] Right.

Robert:
[18:58] It never leaves. Right. It's there. The Holy Spirit has empowered me with that fruit. but i gotta access it.

Kat:
[19:06] Right so.

Robert:
[19:07] Let me go over to this drawer and pull that out let me remind myself of this.

Kat:
[19:11] You know i i think of thomas um especially in the season of the chosen when he loses um rama rama and um and it's funny because he he blames jesus at first, and it takes him a while to get over that that jesus wouldn't bring her back from the dead or that jesus wouldn't have intervened or prevented it to come at all right and and he's and jesus says you know i'm here for you and nothing has changed i love you but i can't do that right and and it's funny because the joy was there joy in jesus was there right thomas was not tapping into it the joy didn't change it didn't move it didn't waver it was just thomas's choice to tap into

Kat:
[20:06] it and to live in that joy and it it happened.

Stephen:
[20:10] Okay tap into it how does one tap into it.

Kat:
[20:15] It's a great question well.

Robert:
[20:17] Again i think it's it's the awareness it's it's being aware of who your heavenly father is and the certainty of your future, of his goodness, of, of everything that every promise he's ever made to you.

Stephen:
[20:38] So it's found in him.

Robert:
[20:41] Yeah.

Stephen:
[20:42] That's the pursuit. The more we pursue God and pursue knowing him, the more we will experience joy that will be satisfied only in him. The more we try to find joy outside of him, the more we'll hunger.

Robert:
[21:04] Yeah.

Stephen:
[21:05] The more we'll thirst.

Kat:
[21:06] Yeah, I agree with that.

Stephen:
[21:08] So I guess going back to my original.

Kat:
[21:11] What I'm saying is we can't say definitively because we don't know it's above our pay grade whether people that are not in relationship with God cannot experience joy. I believe that God can work in people's lives.

Robert:
[21:24] And I think he's admitted to that. Right.

Kat:
[21:26] So that's that's the only thing that I was.

Stephen:
[21:28] Anybody can experience love, joy, peace, patient, all those things. but i don't think that out okay let me take the double negatives out outside of a relationship with him an actual relationship not just an awareness okay he's over there it's.

Kat:
[21:47] Not deep and sustaining.

Stephen:
[21:48] It's not deep and sustaining yes and it's the kind of fruit that shrivels up and dies through tribulation through hardship through trials through all of those things So yeah, there's the seed that experiences, ha, it springs up. I know joy, ha ha. But when tested and put under the fire and put in tribulation, is the joy still there?

Kat:
[22:15] And that's a good question. Can we experience joy without first experiencing hardship?

Stephen:
[22:22] Let's go through some examples. Can lasting joy, can it be experienced outside of experiencing hardship?

Robert:
[22:33] I mean, you're knowing something by what it is not, right? So can I say I know what joy is without experiencing the opposite? I mean, what is the opposite of joy? Based on the definition we're using, what would the opposite of joy be?

Robert:
[22:55] L?

Stephen:
[22:56] Depression uh a face whose countenance has been fallen yeah.

Robert:
[23:03] But but then again you're tying it back to more of like an emotion and not a a basis in god.

Stephen:
[23:11] Well i was going back to cain and abel okay when cain and abel brought sacrifices to god one was accepted and pleasing the other one was not.

Robert:
[23:25] Right.

Stephen:
[23:26] What happened to the one whose sacrifice was not accepted?

Robert:
[23:33] Well, he was upset about it.

Stephen:
[23:36] He was upset. Why?

Robert:
[23:41] Well, I mean, I think if he really reflected on it, he would be like, yeah, dude, I screwed up. I gave him second best. You know, and he was disappointed with himself and took it out on his brother.

Stephen:
[23:54] Right. he knew better.

Robert:
[23:56] Yeah.

Stephen:
[23:57] And instead of owning up to it, he took it out on his brother. Well, going back to joy, like how does that relate to joy? There is a sense of knowing what is right and true and holy and good. And then there's not. There's all of those things can be found in relationship with God.

Robert:
[24:22] Right.

Stephen:
[24:24] What's right and good and true and holy and perfect and pleasing. And so when we pursue those things, setting our mind on the things of above, rather than the things of this earth, which are passing and fleeting, then we will find joy because in the eternal there's, you know. So I'm going back, I guess in my mind, I'm looking at the difference between lasting versus temporal. the temporary versus eternal.

Kat:
[24:53] Did we ever answer the question can we experience joy without first experiencing hardship.

Stephen:
[25:03] I think it's yes.

Kat:
[25:05] Yes.

Stephen:
[25:06] But not in a lasting way.

Kat:
[25:09] So you're saying true joy takes sacrifice.

Robert:
[25:14] I disagree with the statement. I think that you have to know something by what it's not. I mean, how do I know what... It's like saying I live in joy all the time.

Stephen:
[25:23] Versus...

Robert:
[25:24] What else do you know?

Stephen:
[25:26] Right.

Robert:
[25:26] What else do you know?

Stephen:
[25:27] You have to have known...

Robert:
[25:29] Something else to know that this is joy.

Kat:
[25:32] Okay.

Robert:
[25:33] Right. So I think, and I don't know that it necessarily needs to be hardship or suffering or sacrifice. I mean, it could be other, other things perhaps, but.

Stephen:
[25:41] C.S. Lewis thinks that hardship is necessary. Yeah. The, the opening quote was, if you want to get warm, you must stand near the fire. If you want the benefit, you have to go through a, a hardship to earn it or to, to, I don't even want to say earn it because I'm going to, I'm going to cast myself right there.

Kat:
[26:01] But his quote was more about proximity.

Robert:
[26:04] Go with it.

Kat:
[26:05] His quote was not about, it was more like, if I want to be warm, I've got to get close to the fire. If I want love, joy, peace, I have to be close to God.

Stephen:
[26:15] Right.

Kat:
[26:15] That was more his argument in the quote.

Robert:
[26:18] I see where you're going with that metaphor. You're thinking of like.

Kat:
[26:20] You have to go through the fire in order to see the other side.

Stephen:
[26:26] So where I was going with the metaphor, yes, and I agree with you guys. I guess where the other part of the metaphor was, he is an all-consuming fire. The closer we get to him, the more of the chaff, the stuff that doesn't belong, will be burnt off.

Kat:
[26:43] That's a very scary imagery.

Stephen:
[26:46] The closer we get to him, the more refined we become.

Robert:
[26:51] Garbage goes away.

Kat:
[26:52] Yeah. Well, it's like the honing of a diamond, right?

Stephen:
[26:57] Yeah.

Robert:
[26:58] Well, I also love the idea that, you know, if I'm lacking in joy, let me be near somebody that is experiencing it or is able to articulate it more clearly. Right. It's like if you have a log of fire and it's like there's, you have a log of fire on your left and then a log of fire on your right or just a plain old log that's not on fire on your right. It's like, well, that, that one on the right's not going to catch on fire until you put it near where there is flame. right so i'm going to come near steven if i need joy right because he's on fire right and i mean you will be able to to lead me to a greater understanding of spiritual joy as.

Stephen:
[27:40] Long as as long as where i'm leading you is to where i get that too.

Robert:
[27:44] Right and right as.

Stephen:
[27:46] Long as where i'm getting that is in him.

Robert:
[27:48] Right then.

Stephen:
[27:49] I'm not leading you anywhere but closer to god.

Robert:
[27:53] Yeah because it's important that we we keep people lit.

Kat:
[27:59] Right so how do we help cultivate joy in others.

Robert:
[28:06] Well, I think a lot of it has to do with happiness. And I say this cautiously because have you ever met somebody where you're like, dude, there's something different about you.

Kat:
[28:18] They light up a room.

Robert:
[28:19] Right. They walk in and you just, I know something's up with you.

Kat:
[28:22] Yes.

Robert:
[28:23] And I want to know what it is. And I think that's partially it.

Stephen:
[28:30] Somebody who's already tasted and seen that the Lord is good.

Robert:
[28:35] Right.

Stephen:
[28:36] And they've seen it for themselves, and they hold on to that truth.

Robert:
[28:45] And I'm going to use this term, it's almost like they're walking on water, right? It's just they're walking on air, but it might be better.

Stephen:
[28:51] How do you do it?

Robert:
[28:52] Right.

Stephen:
[28:52] What's the secret?

Robert:
[28:53] How are you always happy?

Kat:
[28:54] It's interesting you use that terminology, walking on water, walking on air. Both are symbols of movement, symbols of fluidity. And Henry Nouwen says that he makes this connection between joy and ecstasy. And the Greek word for ecstasy is ekstasis, meaning out of a standstill.

Robert:
[29:19] So that's like a burst. A burst.

Kat:
[29:22] So being joyful is constantly moving out of rigidity, fixed mindsets, and opening our hearts to other life-giving sources, right? The life-giving source of God. And I think that goes back to that daily decision. What am I deciding to embrace today? And I wonder those people that seem like they're walking on air, that seem like they're light and fluid and moving. And do they make that daily decision? When they wake up in the morning, do they say, today is the day, today on this day, I am searching for joy in my creator. I'm searching for joy in God.

Robert:
[30:01] I don't know. That's a hard, I don't know. I think of like when I wake up, I'm like, oh no.

Kat:
[30:06] I know, right?

Robert:
[30:07] Really? I got to do this today and this. But then when I, I don't know what it is, but when I get around people, I'm like, I'm so excited to see you right now like a puppy dog. You know, it's like I enjoy being in people's presence and I think of what we're called to be as believers. And it's like, well, I don't want to dishonor God in my actions. Right? I want to be joyful. I want to be peaceful and loving and, You know?

Kat:
[30:37] Absolutely.

Robert:
[30:38] Stephen, what do you have? He's looking something up.

Stephen:
[30:41] Psalm 95 says, O come, let us sing for joy to the Lord. Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation. In my head, I'm going, okay, why? Why? Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving. Why?

Robert:
[31:03] Thanksgiving.

Stephen:
[31:04] Let us shout joyfully to him with psalms. Why?

Kat:
[31:07] Was it the water? Is that where you're getting at?

Stephen:
[31:11] Why?

Kat:
[31:12] Was it the well?

Stephen:
[31:13] For the Lord is a great God and a great king above all gods, in whose hand are the depths of the earth. The peaks of the mountains are his also. The sea is his, for it was he who made it. And his hands form the dry land Come let us worship and bow down Let us kneel before the Lord Our maker For he is our God, Recognizing Who he is As more than just He's God But he's our maker He made us And he made The mountain highs and the valley lows He made all of this for us for his glory it goes even further, for he is our god and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand today if you would hear his voice or listen to his voice do not harden your hearts, And then there's a whole bunch of, therefore, I swore my anger, truly they shall not enter my rest. The goal of being in right relationship with him is so that our soul can rest.

Kat:
[32:36] Well, I think that don't harden your hearts. Don't rigid your mind. Don't shut yourself out to the moving of the spirit around you in many different manifestations, right? And I think that's, you stand before a mountain and what do you feel? and i've used that that analogy several times but we we've all been around mountains you just how do you feel oh oh wonderment and.

Stephen:
[33:05] We were traveling in we were in california so this podcast is brought to you by three uh floridians and it's it's uh we get to see all sorts of flat terrain on a day-to-day basis so when you when you transplant unless.

Kat:
[33:23] You go to buck tower gardens.

Stephen:
[33:25] Unless you go to buck tower gardens that's that was that was a fun time that's.

Robert:
[33:29] Like a big hill.

Stephen:
[33:30] Well we went we went mounted.

Kat:
[33:32] To us right.

Stephen:
[33:33] My my uh my wife and her sisters and i went out to california to visit with some family and while we were out there We got to see some views that you just, you forget just how vast this, this place is. You know, in Florida, what we get to see is the ocean, the vastness of the ocean.

Robert:
[33:57] Right.

Stephen:
[33:58] But what others get to see is the vastness of mountains.

Robert:
[34:03] It's like being at your dad's house.

Kat:
[34:05] Yeah.

Robert:
[34:05] That view, you see the vast, but now California is like sprawling.

Stephen:
[34:10] I mean, every hill, you go over a hill and you're just, what? What? Those, what? Yeah. It's awe-inspiring. It really is.

Robert:
[34:19] Indeed.

Kat:
[34:20] So when you're together and you're looking at a mountain, what does collective joy look like? Have you experienced it with other people in like a church congregation or community, with friends, family?

Stephen:
[34:32] What do you mean by collective joy?

Kat:
[34:34] It's a good question. What does it mean to you when I say collective joy?

Robert:
[34:39] I don't know that it necessarily needs to be verbalized, but when Stacey and I are on a hike and we see something that we just know... is awesome. We just, dude, I'm looking in your eyes and I know that this is it. God is in this moment. He's in this, this thing, whatever it may be, this, this ant pile, this towering oak, like.

Stephen:
[35:07] Where it's not a matter of perspective or preference. It's just, this is, this is not even arguable.

Robert:
[35:16] It leaves you speechless.

Stephen:
[35:18] Right. the heavens declare the glory of god i think all of the earth in in that way will know when it's when it's him.

Robert:
[35:28] And i think we we so badly want to put words to everything sure.

Stephen:
[35:32] We do we want to make sense of things and.

Kat:
[35:35] And roles and.

Robert:
[35:36] Can you just let it be dude guidelines just let it be and so i mean when you're talking about collective joy i think you know it when you feel it.

Kat:
[35:45] Yes I think so.

Robert:
[35:48] Too. I mean, I think it's, it, it, it, it's kind of difficult to verbalize, but there's an awareness, again, coming back to that word of awareness, is that we're in this together, we just both experience the same thing.

Stephen:
[36:04] At the same time.

Robert:
[36:05] Right.

Kat:
[36:06] Yeah. There was a moment.

Robert:
[36:08] A healing.

Kat:
[36:09] We just got together for a 4th of July weekend. That's when we're filming this podcast. And we were at Stephen's new home celebrating his housewarming. And then Stephen and Michaela put on an amazing firework display, which may or may not have threatened our lives. But that's neither here nor there. But I had this moment of collective joy. And it was seeing everybody gathered there for the celebration of Steve and Michaela and their new home. It was the kids with the sparklers. It was me and Stacey hiding behind our husbands when the giant boom of the fireworks came and I'm, you know, trying to get ashes out of Stacey's hair and we're laughing and holding on to each other. And I was like, this is a moment. I felt it. I felt the collective joy. And it wasn't that we were, it wasn't that we were sitting around and praying, you know? It was, we were having fun. And I think that sometimes we have to realize that the creator of the universe is fun.

Robert:
[37:20] He's crafting those moments.

Kat:
[37:22] He's crafting those moments and those opportunities for us to lean into each other and to him.

Robert:
[37:28] What else you're feeling in there too?

Kat:
[37:30] Yes.

Robert:
[37:30] I mean, love, peace, I mean, well, maybe not peace, that your hair's on fire.

Kat:
[37:35] Laughter.

Robert:
[37:36] Right.

Kat:
[37:36] But there's an underlying piece of being with each other.

Robert:
[37:40] Right.

Kat:
[37:40] And that was a joyful moment. And not just the fleeting happiness kind, but the kind that is about community.

Stephen:
[37:49] Togetherness, and- And sharing.

Kat:
[37:53] And sharing. And so I think the intense, a moment can be joyful without being external. If that makes sense.

Robert:
[38:01] Yeah.

Stephen:
[38:02] I think it's also important to recognize that when we do experience what you're calling the collective joy, we all want to participate in it and share in that experience with one another. When we are full of his spirit, we want to share his spirit with everyone.

Robert:
[38:27] Right.

Stephen:
[38:27] Like when we have that joy, which comes from him and people like you were just saying, you know, what, what causes a person to just light up a room and you look at them and they're like, you know, how, with everything that you've experienced, are you still letting up the room? You know, each of us in this room right now have experienced things in the very recent past that should have, in normal terms, snuffed out the fire. Multiple times, but it's still there.

Kat:
[39:07] Sometimes it feels like it gets a little snuffed, right? In a moment, in a situation.

Stephen:
[39:12] But those embers are still there.

Kat:
[39:14] Oh yeah, they are. And they flare right back up. But there are times where we take a hit. And I think it's also important to recognize that as Christ followers, as people of the Spirit, as friends, as family, as participants in community. That sadness exists, and we can't deny that, and we can't, in fact, I brought up a quote here, and I put under there, me no likey, because I struggle with it, and I wanted to share it with you and

Kat:
[39:46] see if you guys struggle with it too. All right, I'm going to read it. So this is coming from Pierre, this particular piece, Joy is the surest sign of the presence of God, is from Pierre Teilhard del Chardin. And that's not what I have an issue with. So Bruce Larson continues on and says, This Jesuit priest-theologian anthropologist had a good deal in common with the Presbyterian sages who penned the Westminster Confession of Faith. The bottom line for you and me is simply you this grimness is not a christian virtue there are no sad saints if god really is the center of one's life and being joy is inevitable if we have no joy we've missed the heart of the good news and our bodies as much as our souls will suffer the consequences, i felt like it was a.

Stephen:
[40:37] Lot to unpack.

Kat:
[40:38] There's a ton to unpack the vocabulary.

Robert:
[40:40] Of that is so loaded.

Kat:
[40:42] It is. We could do a whole podcast episode on that quote.

Robert:
[40:45] On just that alone.

Kat:
[40:46] I know.

Robert:
[40:47] And again, I think this is, we're talking about how we use that word joy, right? There are no sad saints. I don't like that statement.

Kat:
[41:00] I don't either.

Robert:
[41:01] I have a problem with that.

Kat:
[41:02] Me no likey. I even wrote that.

Robert:
[41:04] Me no likey either. I'm in agreement with you. Um, I think we are going to experience hardships and trials and it's going to be sad when you lose a child or a mother or a father or whatever, right? That's, that's to be expected. And I think God created us that way for a reason. um but to say that that bars us in some way um we have no joy we've missed the heart of the good news in our bodies i mean we have joy in spite of the sadness we have joy in spite of the difficulties that we face however dim that may be as you guys were just talking about before i mean it's not out no.

Kat:
[41:48] It's not out.

Stephen:
[41:53] No, keep going. I'm just reading.

Robert:
[41:55] I'm waiting for you.

Stephen:
[41:56] I'm processing what you're saying, but I'm reading at the same time.

Robert:
[41:59] No, no, no. That was my biggest issues with it.

Kat:
[42:01] Yeah. I thought I wanted to bring it up because I felt very controversial about it.

Robert:
[42:07] Why?

Kat:
[42:07] The fact that to say there are no sad saints, I feel like it's always important for us to recognize the sadness of others. And if we, like, for instance, in a church service, if we begin by not recognizing the tragedies that need prayer, and we just say, we're just here to worship, you know, and we have to realize that congregational members are all in different phases of experience, and they may be going through something that needs sensitivity and love to support them. And to just glaze over and say, Jesus is risen, be happy. Like, I know we're Easter people, but come on, you know, sometimes.

Stephen:
[42:48] There's a time for weeping. There's a time for mourning.

Kat:
[42:51] There is.

Stephen:
[42:52] And it is appropriate to experience that.

Kat:
[42:55] Yes.

Stephen:
[42:55] And it is important to embrace that we will experience hard, hard times. I know, personally, a family, a very close, dear family of ours in our congregation, recently endured a loss that you can't even wrap your head around.

Robert:
[43:20] Right.

Stephen:
[43:22] And I can't go to someone who has had that kind of loss and say, but the joy of the Lord is our strength. because there is a time for weeping and a time for mourning and a time for it to sit in that.

Robert:
[43:45] Right. Well, I just think of the story of Job.

Stephen:
[43:48] Yeah.

Robert:
[43:49] But it's like, again, though he slay me.

Stephen:
[43:53] The verses that I was looking at came, yet again, from Psalms. David had, I don't want to say David had every reason to complain, but he had every reason to complain. He was being pursued by his king Who wanted him dead Just because the king was jealous That David had been given favor And was named by the Most High as the king, So he had a selfish, greedy, possessive king Who was not ready or willing to let go of his kingdom.

Stephen:
[44:35] But God was God was like, no, it's definitely going to be my servant David, who's a man after my own heart, etc., etc. Well, Psalm 30 says, I will exalt you, Lord, for you have lifted me up and have not let my enemies rejoice over me. Lord, my God, I cried to you for help and you healed me. Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol, from the grave, from the under. And you have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit. Sing praises to the Lord, you his godly ones, and praise the mention of his holiness. For his anger is but for a moment, his favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may last for a night, but a shot of joy comes in the morning. It's recognizing that there is hard. Life is hard.

Kat:
[45:31] Yes, it is.

Stephen:
[45:32] And I'm pausing because it can be really, really frustrating to the point you want to punch somebody who is a believer, who comes with this exuberant joy and who seems impervious to what goes on in life. where they would say, yeah, things are hard, but... I don't pay attention to that. Or why do I have any reason to cry? My trust is in the Lord. And they have this almost ignorant joy that can be more harmful as a fruit to others. Because part of the joy that people want is healing. They don't want to just have a feeling of happiness and exuberance. They want to heal from the pain and the suffering that they have experienced that makes them hunger for and thirsty for joy in the first place.

Kat:
[46:47] So, we say this a lot, right? I'm going to start with this quote from Jesus. He said, I have told you these things. I think it's John 15, 11. I've told you these things so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete. And it's one of my favorite verses, but this is what we often say. Oh, just find joy in Jesus. You know, it's almost like a placate. And I have a hard time with that because how do we get people, if joy is outside of the external, what is the practical guide for getting there? What does this mean beyond face value? You know, find your joy in Jesus. Well, if somebody is struggling with this abstract concept, finding joy in Christ,

Kat:
[47:36] what does that look like? How has that been manifested in your lives?

Robert:
[47:41] I think, going back to the, I guess, the situation is.

Robert:
[47:48] It's okay to grieve, right? It's okay to have sadness. It's okay. You know, I mean, some people have chemical imbalances. They have ADD, ADHD. I mean, pick something, right? And I think that's just part of being human. We are all going to experience hardship in one way or another and i think that if we are centered in christ right we're we're we're in fellowship with him not just like yeah i show up on sunday in philipu no i mean am i seeking actively am i seeking him am i reading his word with regularity am i praying to him and being still and silent and receiving um am i worshiping him you know like i think if you have those things, that will provide you with more hope and joy in those difficult times it'll be what carries you through i don't think that that i mean in this life you will have suffering right right and i think that the joy is still there it's just i need to experience this right now i just lost my child, right and there's nothing wrong with that right and you said we can use these platitudes and play like they just oh god is still good yeah i know that but right now my child is dead and.

Stephen:
[49:16] I need i need two more.

Robert:
[49:18] I need right and there's nothing wrong with there's.

Stephen:
[49:20] Nothing wrong with that.

Robert:
[49:21] And you can still have joy i know who my heavenly father still is.

Stephen:
[49:27] And I know that even though I'm hurting like hell right now, I know his promises are true.

Robert:
[49:37] Right.

Stephen:
[49:37] I know he has always remained true to his word. And if that's true, that he is true to his word, then I will see my loved one again. There is life beyond this physical that we have to look forward to. So I think that there is a marriage of joy and hope. Joy can be experienced by anybody. Joy with hope is really difficult to experience outside of a spiritual context.

Kat:
[50:14] We have to have something to hope for.

Stephen:
[50:16] You have to yeah and if you don't have that thing to hope for it's really hard to have a sustained a sustained sense of joy yes it depletes itself, so that's my challenge to our listeners is ask yourself is my joy only when things go well in my life? Is my joy still there when things don't? And if it isn't, I do want to say it's okay. You know where to look.

Kat:
[50:53] For sure.

Stephen:
[50:53] We want to give you that hope that there is hope beyond suffering. There is hope beyond sadness. There is a mourning to look forward to even after the night falls.

Kat:
[51:07] I think, too, a practical thing when I'm not in joy or feeling like my heart is joyful is going back and writing down all the ways that he's been faithful. And I think gratitude journals have become like a clicky thing, like a trend. So whether you're on board with that or not is fine, but something like that.

Robert:
[51:35] Well, I mean, just journal.

Kat:
[51:37] Just journal.

Robert:
[51:37] Go back and look at your journals.

Kat:
[51:38] Go back and look and see, you know, when was he faithful? When was the last time that I really felt like he pulled through for me? And dig into that because it's going to be surprising and you'll see a history and you'll see a trend.

Robert:
[51:53] He comes through again and again.

Kat:
[51:54] And so when it feels like there's darkness and it's not going to let up, think about how many times he's pulled you through.

Stephen:
[52:03] Yes.

Kat:
[52:04] And connect with him.

Stephen:
[52:05] How many storms have you already been through?

Kat:
[52:07] Exactly.

Stephen:
[52:09] Okay, Floridians know hurricanes. We know hurricanes like nobody's business. But we also know that with hurricanes, there's a certain sense of, yes, this is bad, but history has shown us we'll get through this, too. Right. Yeah. God works that way, too. He has shown us, I've gotten you through these hard times. I will get you through the next hard times.

Kat:
[52:43] Yes. Okay. We are bringing back an oldie.

Stephen:
[52:48] But goodie.

Kat:
[52:50] An oldie but goodie. As the hip people like to say today, the OG people.

Stephen:
[52:56] Were you just waiting to use that?

Robert:
[52:59] She wanted to use that.

Stephen:
[52:59] She was chewing on it.

Kat:
[53:01] I was.

Robert:
[53:01] She was talking about it before we started recording.

Kat:
[53:04] It's like one of those colloquialisms. I know.

Stephen:
[53:08] There it is.

Kat:
[53:08] Push the button. Okay, the colloquialisms of the new age. OG, this concept.

Stephen:
[53:15] So you're bringing back, for our listeners who may be new to the podcast this season, you're bringing back what?

Kat:
[53:20] The QQQ, the quick question quandary.

Stephen:
[53:23] The quick question quandaries.

Kat:
[53:25] Okay. So I went back and I looked at, we also had an episode in season one called

Kat:
[53:30] Joy Through Hardship. And that was episode nine. It's a great episode. Go and listen to it. We do talk about a lot of different stuff in this one. So that's great.

Stephen:
[53:38] We will link that episode in the description of this episode. So look out for that.

Kat:
[53:41] So one of the things that I had asked back then was how you would define joy. And I wanted to redefine joy. I'm going to tell you what you said. I want you to redefine it.

Stephen:
[53:52] Mine.

Robert:
[53:53] No, you're going to tell us after. We give you our new definition. Okay.

Kat:
[53:58] Right?

Robert:
[53:58] Because if you tell us, it might.

Kat:
[54:00] Yeah, it might influence it.

Robert:
[54:01] Right.

Kat:
[54:01] Okay. See if you came up with something new. If you've grown in two years, three years, however long it's been. Okay. So, redefine joy in one word. Bob?

Robert:
[54:12] In one word?

Kat:
[54:13] In one word.

Robert:
[54:15] Dear Lord.

Kat:
[54:16] All right. It doesn't have to be one word.

Robert:
[54:17] One word. I mean, if I was to say.

Kat:
[54:19] A sentence.

Robert:
[54:19] A word. God. I mean.

Kat:
[54:22] Okay.

Robert:
[54:23] God. because that's where it's found.

Stephen:
[54:27] Assurance, because with it comes confidence that kind of joy is confidence in who he is what he has said is true, and the byproduct of that realization and trusting in that is joy so assurance.

Kat:
[54:50] I like that I think if I had to say joy, I would say relationship.

Stephen:
[55:02] Yeah. That was low-hanging fruit.

Kat:
[55:08] All right. I'm sorry.

Robert:
[55:09] Okay.

Kat:
[55:10] So last time I said, when I say joy, what do you think of? That was the exact phrasing.

Robert:
[55:17] Right.

Kat:
[55:19] Bob, you said, do you remember?

Robert:
[55:22] Probably something with Charlotte. You did.

Kat:
[55:24] You said Charlotte.

Robert:
[55:25] Did I?

Kat:
[55:26] Yes. You did. So, Stephen, what did you say?

Stephen:
[55:30] I don't remember what I said.

Kat:
[55:32] You said quality time with your wife.

Robert:
[55:35] Yeah.

Stephen:
[55:38] Yeah that that's pretty good.

Kat:
[55:40] Yeah and i like.

Stephen:
[55:42] That guy who said that.

Kat:
[55:43] Again some guy named steven we'll have him out on the next episode, okay so i said um moments snapshots specifically like playing volleyball in the pool, watching the sun trickle on the water with my family's laughter around me like things like that Okay, so then the next question was, I'm joyful when?

Robert:
[56:12] Probably something with Charlotte again. See, here's the thing. Everything that we're doing, I want to answer that question outside of this big 45-minute discussion we just had. It's like, because if I'm going with that definition, it's when I'm in the presence of God.

Kat:
[56:32] Yeah.

Robert:
[56:36] Yeah is that a low-hanging fruit one that's such a christian answer.

Kat:
[56:41] I learned.

Robert:
[56:43] It from you steven.

Kat:
[56:44] Last time you said when you're comfortable when i'm comfortable yes interesting yeah i'm most joyful when.

Robert:
[56:51] I did sit when i was looking at the notes i had said something similar to that it's like um when i'm at peace.

Kat:
[56:59] See you said when i'm comfortable when i'm at peace is what you're full stream so it's interesting that you're still on track you're still kind of tracking all right steven what did you say i feel the most joyful when.

Stephen:
[57:14] Oh gosh it i do know it's changed.

Kat:
[57:20] It may not have been i know.

Stephen:
[57:23] It's changed because is I feel joy the most when I know he's with me. I don't know what I said before, but I feel the most joy when he shows me he's true and he's with me, that I'm not forsaken, abandoned, left behind. That's when I experience the most joy.

Kat:
[57:49] And what does that translate to, knowing he's with you? if you could pin it to one of the fruits.

Stephen:
[57:59] Peace. I know joy when I have peace.

Kat:
[58:05] Okay. So you had said, I feel the most joyful when I have something to look forward to, which I think is also deeply connected to that.

Stephen:
[58:15] Yeah, it is. In the last year, I want to tie it to my cancer journey. Every so few months, I have a scan that will show whether or not the treatment is actually working. Whether or not the treatment is working has become immaterial because I know his promises are true. I know that he has sustained me this far and has blessed me abundantly whether or not the treatment is working. So in a way, my definition has had to change because I have never had a hard time like this.

Kat:
[59:05] Yeah, I know.

Stephen:
[59:06] So it has had to shake the roots a bit and test the soil and, you know.

Kat:
[59:12] Yeah. Okay. We're moving on to two new ones. You ready?

Robert:
[59:16] Okay.

Kat:
[59:17] Okay. And this is going to be quick. Quick question quandary, guys.

Robert:
[59:22] You know that we struggle with quick.

Kat:
[59:24] I know, I know. Okay, who is your biblical joy mentor and why?

Robert:
[59:29] You mean like story in the Bible, like biblical joy mentor?

Kat:
[59:33] Who's your biblical joy mentor?

Stephen:
[59:33] Job.

Robert:
[59:34] Job. Really?

Stephen:
[59:35] Job, 100%. Yeah. 100%. Okay, if Job is, okay, Bob can have Job.

Robert:
[59:43] We can both have Job. It's okay, Steve.

Kat:
[59:46] We're going to roll against it.

Stephen:
[59:47] I'm going to take Abraham. I'm going to take Abraham because he exemplifies the joy is not in right now. It's what he has to look forward to. Even though Abraham had one son and he was commanded, I want you to give him up. Abraham's joy was not found in solely his son. It was in the promise son that was yet to come. So, and it was recognizing that God could take his only son and still be true to his word We just can't wrap our head around how that's possible, We don't have to, we have to trust in him, So as long as we acknowledge that he is good, his promises are sure Then he can take our only begotten son and still, and still give us something to hope for.

Kat:
[1:00:48] Stephen can't do quick.

Stephen:
[1:00:49] I can't.

Robert:
[1:00:50] How about you? How about you?

Kat:
[1:00:52] Ruth.

Robert:
[1:00:53] Ruth. Okay.

Kat:
[1:00:55] So I think that Ruth is a great example of collective joy. And seeing joy in somebody else like Naomi and wanting that, desiring it. And that created this desire to have relationship with God. And even despite all of the circumstances, Ruth continued to listen. She continued to make the decision to step forward.

Kat:
[1:01:19] and even despite the circumstance even in the unsurety it takes joy to say yes it takes I am going to step into this moment and I am going to do the next right thing and I feel like that's okay finally Bob what is one to do like task for you to participate on I'm sorry what is one to do for you to participate and foster in the joy of others. Like if there is, what is one of a task that you want to work on or something to do or a initiative to foster.

Robert:
[1:02:01] To help me be more joyful?

Kat:
[1:02:02] No, to foster or participate in the joy of others.

Robert:
[1:02:08] If I'm understanding the question correctly, then it would probably be to get out of my own head.

Kat:
[1:02:16] Oh, okay.

Robert:
[1:02:18] To be more present to what's happening instead of, what about me?

Kat:
[1:02:25] Yes.

Robert:
[1:02:26] The selfishness of...

Kat:
[1:02:27] I love that. Stephen?

Stephen:
[1:02:29] Ask the question again.

Kat:
[1:02:30] So what is one task or initiative for you to participate and foster in the joy of others?

Stephen:
[1:02:37] Community. Seeking out community. For sure. If I'm struggling finding joy, I have to surround myself with other people.

Kat:
[1:02:50] Absolutely.

Robert:
[1:02:50] That's good.

Stephen:
[1:02:51] I can't, and I'm going to be quick, I promise. I can't isolate. It only gets worse. When I'm feeling, when I need to experience joy, I plug in with community. with meaningful, lasting, strong, diverse, challenging community.

Kat:
[1:03:14] I love that. So I want to be awake to the experiences and the pain of others. I think sometimes I really like to be, everything's great, everything's great, you know, nothing is bad. And sometimes people aren't there. And that's a challenge for me. I want to be awake to people's experiences. I want to be sensitive to them and also awake and aware of God and how he moves and what he's showing me on a daily basis and find joy in the flowers and fireworks and friends.

Stephen:
[1:03:54] Presence.

Kat:
[1:03:55] Presence.

Robert:
[1:04:00] Thanks for joining us today as we explore the very multifaceted topic of joy. We hope some of the topics connected with those on your heart and mind and maybe inspired you to do some further digging on this topic. If you haven't already and would like to download the companion devotional for this season, you can find it for free at thefellowshippodcast.com. You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook, and write to us with any questions or feedback at questionsatthefellowshippodcast.com. Make sure to mark your calendars for the release of Episode 3 on Sunday, August 31st. We are so glad you tuned in today, and we hope you join us next time on The Fellowship.